mikesilb...EII or a different type?

[aestrivex]

also, though i still find the explanation that i gave of your videos unsatisfactory in its observations, i am somewhat glad that you seem to "understand" in your own self-concept the main point of what i was trying to enumerate -- mainly, that you are a character predominantly defined by passion, emotional reactions and a fundamentally emotionally focused-lens of looking at things.

to that extent, while it makes sense to me that you would be confused between ethics-leading types based on these observations, it is obvious in my opinion that the nature of your emotionality is more visible and expressive than that of Fi-leading types. in my opinion Fi-leading types are not as a rule characterized by the degree of passion or outwards enthusiasm that you seem to identify within yourself -- rather, it would be more appropriate in my opinion to think of Fi as an element as pertaining to a more private and introspective emotional world. i do think that you are at least somewhat an introspective and contemplative character, but also that the contemplative content of your video, searching for ultimate destiny and meaning and whatnot, is an inherently beta-oriented perquisition.

[mikesilb]

to be sure, one can speak of "extroverted introverts" and a range of variability in this sense, but in my opinion such people are often still easy to identify as introverts compared to genuine extroverts. in my opinion, it makes perfect sense to think of you based on your videos as exactly the opposite -- an extrovert whose contemplative nature and relatively medium-sized social circle lead you to think of yourself as an introvert.

That is absolutely possible (that I could be a more introspective/contemplative extravert), and I am certainly playing with this concept. So far, it sounds more true than I even thought, and I am going to give it a reasonable amount of thought in the next few days.

There is one area that I want some greater perspective regarding the introvert/extravert question. I am not a big fan of networking, marketing/selling my strengths/abilities, and even approaching strangers to start a conversation. It might be social anxiety-related or something similar to that. With a group of people whom I feel comfortable with (or who I have an automatic common bond with), I can be as friendly and open as I was in the video. However, if these people are unfamiliar to me (i.e. strangers), or if I feel uncomfortable networking (selling myself) in general (because it feels awkward), I will certainly go more inward. Might this have any effect on thinking of me as an extravert, or is this unrelated? My gut feeling is that I could still be extraverted and feel that way, but I just wanted your feedback regarding this.

also, though i still find the explanation that i gave of your videos unsatisfactory in its observations, i am somewhat glad that you seem to "understand" in your own self-concept the main point of what i was trying to enumerate -- mainly, that you are a character predominantly defined by passion, emotional reactions and a fundamentally emotionally focused-lens of looking at things.

How do you feel that the explanation was unsatisfactory (if you don't mind me asking?) Is it because the evidence wasn't solid enough or was it for any other reason?

Beyond this, I certainly see what you were telling me. The more that I think about it, the more I see its possibility. I think that I will need to observe my own traits and reactivity in order to determine whether this stands the test of time. My initial gut feeling is that it might very well do that. I do feel that both you and RSV3 very much understand my general outlook to things (based on what you both individually wrote to me), and I certainly notice the type of emotionality (on a moment-to-moment basis) that you have mentioned to me. So this all seems quite intriguing thus far.

to that extent, while it makes sense to me that you would be confused between ethics-leading types based on these observations, it is obvious in my opinion that the nature of your emotionality is more visible and expressive than that of Fi-leading types. in my opinion Fi-leading types are not as a rule characterized by the degree of passion or outwards enthusiasm that you seem to identify within yourself -- rather, it would be more appropriate in my opinion to think of Fi as an element as pertaining to a more private and introspective emotional world. i do think that you are at least somewhat an introspective and contemplative character, but also that the contemplative content of your video, searching for ultimate destiny and meaning and whatnot, is an inherently beta-oriented perquisition.

I get this very much. It is just the thing that could release my thinking that I am an EII (and in favor of EIE). I like the way that you still notice the introspective, contemplative side to me even though I may not necessarily be a Fi-dominant. Perhaps it is because of the Ni that allows me to often reflect on the deeper meaning, philosophy, and theory of it all. So this can work as a possibility, especially when above it all, the emotionality is still showing up on the surface as the first impression that one notices.

Gotta play with the EIE concept some more, but as for now, I am certainly intrigued with it all. It appears to make sense thus far. Thanks for making me aware of this new possibility (that now I will weigh more and more against EII)!

[aestrivex]

There is one area that I want some greater perspective regarding the introvert/extravert question. I am not a big fan of networking, marketing/selling my strengths/abilities, and even approaching strangers to start a conversation. It might be social anxiety-related or something similar to that. With a group of people whom I feel comfortable with (or who I have an automatic common bond with), I can be as friendly and open as I was in the video. However, if these people are unfamiliar to me (i.e. strangers), or if I feel uncomfortable networking (selling myself) in general (because it feels awkward), I will certainly go more inward. Might this have any effect on thinking of me as an extravert, or is this unrelated? My gut feeling is that I could still be extraverted and feel that way, but I just wanted your feedback regarding this.

as you might expect, this experience is not particularly meaningful to me. in general, evaluating characteristics like ability to network or the size of one's social circle is a best-fit approach to a trait-based system, and speaks little to IM element dynamics. furthermore, your description reads of a classically human mechanism -- in that it makes perfect sense ignoring socionics-related information to begin with.

How do you feel that the explanation was unsatisfactory (if you don't mind me asking?) Is it because the evidence wasn't solid enough or was it for any other reason?

i find it far too vague and lacking in real observations and concrete descriptions that are not merely impressions. however, based on everything from your self report i would assess that all of my otherwise vague "impressions" were essentially correct assessments of your character.

[mikesilb]

There is one area that I want some greater perspective regarding the introvert/extravert question. I am not a big fan of networking, marketing/selling my strengths/abilities, and even approaching strangers to start a conversation. It might be social anxiety-related or something similar to that. With a group of people whom I feel comfortable with (or who I have an automatic common bond with), I can be as friendly and open as I was in the video. However, if these people are unfamiliar to me (i.e. strangers), or if I feel uncomfortable networking (selling myself) in general (because it feels awkward), I will certainly go more inward. Might this have any effect on thinking of me as an extravert, or is this unrelated? My gut feeling is that I could still be extraverted and feel that way, but I just wanted your feedback regarding this.

as you might expect, this experience is not particularly meaningful to me. in general, evaluating characteristics like ability to network or the size of one's social circle is a best-fit approach to a trait-based system, and speaks little to IM element dynamics. furthermore, your description reads of a classically human mechanism -- in that it makes perfect sense ignoring socionics-related information to begin with.

OK so I just want to make sure that I get you completely here...What you are basically saying is that these individual situations that I am mentioning (i.e., not wishing to network, not choosing to approach others to initiate conversation, etc.) is not within the typical scope of the Information Elements and are extraneous with regards to type determination. Is this what you mean (and in other words, that EIE would still stand, even in spite of these particular scenarios)?

How do you feel that the explanation was unsatisfactory (if you don't mind me asking?) Is it because the evidence wasn't solid enough or was it for any other reason?

i find it far too vague and lacking in real observations and concrete descriptions that are not merely impressions. however, based on everything from your self report i would assess that all of my otherwise vague "impressions" were essentially correct assessments of your character.

Makes considerable sense! Thanks for clarifying!

[aestrivex]

OK so I just want to make sure that I get you completely here...What you are basically saying is that these individual situations that I am mentioning (i.e., not wishing to network, not choosing to approach others to initiate conversation, etc.) is not within the typical scope of the Information Elements and are extraneous with regards to type determination. Is this what you mean (and in other words, that EIE would still stand, even in spite of these particular scenarios)?

not quite. i don't believe that all such characteristics are entirely extraneous to type-related issues as you might suggest (although surely some are -- i was asked recently by a contact of mine whether it was indicative that he might be Te super-ego that he frequently misplaces his keys). what characteristics of this kind do represent, however, is something that, by beginners, is very frequently interpreted in the domain of trait-based characteristics (much of what contemporary MBTI assessments do) and not in the domain of element-based assessments, which perhaps require somewhat less of a quantifiably-based interpretation. that is to say, it might be very indicative of a person's type that they in virtually all situations timidly fail to initiate social contact others, or if they do the exact opposite.

in your case, however, when discussing these characteristics you specified that your behavior was situation specific to how comfortable you are feeling around present company (possibly, socionics' closest equivalent to a null result) -- and furthermore the characteristics you described were hardly very striking compared to much of the other information about yourself that i did discern.

[RSV3]

Well, I thought I should provide some reasoning for why I believe you are EII. As a side note, although LIIs love explaining concepts to people, they often detest being asked to give step-by-step reasoning in support a conclusion they've made. If they've reached the correct conclusion, it shouldn't matter how it was reached.

Anyway, I'll start by noting some general observations I've made about you.
I've noticed you are:
-Optimistic
-Accommodating of others' varying viewpoints
-Appreciative of others' input
-Comfortable prolonging a decision (regarding your type ) until all the information and discussion has been completed
-Fairly animated speech
-passionate about areas of interest
-Focused
-Emotional

You look at the big picture, try and find yours (and others') greater purpose in life. You seek recognition for your accomplishments, yet this external recognition is sought more so as validation for your hard work and less so for the external status it conveys upon you. You generally end up accomplishing what you initially set out to do. Rather than having a wide range of interests in which you have only superficial knowledge/interest, you choose to have fewer interests in order to have a deeper understanding of them. You like to focus on the main points and try and discard the extraneous elements. You are quite capable at quickly identifying other people's strengths and potential.

I guess based on this, I'm led to believe you are an EII vs an EIE. You do seem to be seeking Si--you mention appreciating being in a comfortable environment where you can open up and be yourself. I have seen absolutely nothing from you indicating that you seek Se; in fact, I would say you actually despise Se and view it as being too coercive. You seem to focus a lot on being accepting of other people and their ideas, which to me suggests delta values.

And quite frankly, you are missing a lot of common EIE mannerisms. Your speech is much more literal and lacks the hyperbole that EIEs often inject into their speech. There is little innuendo but rather a very straightforward approach. Additionally, although you are passionate and strongly aware of your emotions, I don't see the emotional magnitude or variance I see with Fe egos; it's as if you have deep emotions but don't necessarily radiate them like an Fe ego would.

I do see some arguments for EIE. Your sense of purpose and destiny could possibly represent Ni and your motivational attitude is not uncharacteristic of some EIEs. You're fairly lively and energetic in your videos as well. However overall, I'm still confident in my EII typing of you. Hopefully this gives you one more perspective to consider.

[mikesilb]

Hi RSV,

To start off...let me just say, WOW!! I feel that pretty much everything from top to bottom applied to me perfectly! What a fascinating understanding of how I tick based on the two videos plus all the questions that we addressed thus far. I will attempt to address all that you commented, but I just want to say how spot on you are about pretty much everything!

And by the way, I can only imagine how you might detest the step-by-step reasoning, since so much of this is about deeper intuitions and impressions that may at times be harder to pinpoint. In lieu of this, I so incredibly appreciate the effort that you took towards elucidating some of the inner impressions that you have built up since I joined this board!

I may want to make a numerical list of all your points since there were so many of them worth commenting...even if that only requires a 'Yes'. I am not a fan of quantifying things, but there is so much richness here that pretty much every point here warrants a comment. Qualitatively, you already know how I feel from the sentences above. Bottom line: The explanation ROCKS!

Anyway, I'll start by noting some general observations I've made about you.
I've noticed you are:
1. Optimistic
2. Accommodating of others' varying viewpoints
3. Appreciative of others' input
4. Comfortable prolonging a decision (regarding your type ) until all the information and discussion has been completed
5. Fairly animated speech
6. passionate about areas of interest
7. Focused
8. Emotional
9. You look at the big picture,
10. try and find yours (and others') greater purpose in life.
11. You seek recognition for your accomplishments,
11A. yet this external recognition is sought more so as validation for your hard work and less so for the external status it conveys upon you.
12. You generally end up accomplishing what you initially set out to do.
13. Rather than having a wide range of interests in which you have only superficial knowledge/interest, you choose to have fewer interests in order to have a deeper understanding of them.
13A. You like to focus on the main points and try and discard the extraneous elements.
14. You are quite capable at quickly identifying other people's strengths and potential.

I guess based on this, I'm led to believe you are an EII vs an EIE.

15. You do seem to be seeking Si--you mention appreciating being in a comfortable environment where you can open up and be yourself.
16. I have seen absolutely nothing from you indicating that you seek Se; in fact, I would say you actually despise Se and view it as being too coercive.
17. You seem to focus a lot on being accepting of other people and their ideas, which to me suggests delta values.

18. And quite frankly, you are missing a lot of common EIE mannerisms. Your speech is much more literal and lacks the hyperbole that EIEs often inject into their speech. There is little innuendo but rather a very straightforward approach. Additionally, although you are passionate and strongly aware of your emotions, I don't see the emotional magnitude or variance I see with Fe egos; it's as if you have deep emotions but don't necessarily radiate them like an Fe ego would.

I do see some arguments for EIE.
19. Your sense of purpose and destiny could possibly represent Ni and your motivational attitude is not uncharacteristic of some EIEs.
20. You're fairly lively and energetic in your videos as well. However overall, I'm still confident in my EII typing of you.

OK...now I'm going to go point by point with my comments.

1. Absolutely! But I will also add that as an Enneagram 6, I am also pessimistic and worrisome if I am nervous that something can go wrong or is going wrong. Also (as I will allude to later in point number 16), if someone pushes Se on me before I am ready to start actively working/going, I can get somewhat rattled and I don't like that at all. I feel that too much is changing too fast. Optimism drops at that point. So that is when the exceptions come alive. However, as a general rule, I definitely like to be optimistic and generally hopeful for positive outcomes since that honestly keeps me going in so many ways.

2. BIG TIME! I want to respect and be tolerant of other's perspectives. I am big on finding harmony and synthesizing the perspectives of others. Through an openness, that brings me there. Despite this, I will say, that my inner values are enormous here in allowing me to navigate my ship through sometimes tricky waters. I have an inner compass which is pretty much as pivotal to me as bread and water. I love to be tolerant of others' opinions but only if it doesn't adversely affect my ability to be authentic in general. Authenticity is huge for me! But flexibility is also pretty darn large for me too. If I am in fact an EII (in which you make some rock-solid claims throughout this post), I think that my subtype will be Ne due to this openness and flexibility.

3. Yes. I so appreciate everyone's efforts here (and in general), and if I can't have gratitude for that, what can I have? After all, you guys are doing me a nice favor and it is well appreciated!

4. Synthesis...synthesis...synthesis. I believe in combining everybody's perspectives in order to have as well-informed of a foundation (as to my type) as possible. Everybody's evaluation is valuable (as long as it isnt overly judgemental...and doesn't read like a verdict). Definitely true.

5. Yes...I feel that this is coming from being rational/feeling first. It is as if my inner impressions feed on my passion and I am able to fully delve into the distinct/unique area where I happen to be passionate. The animation comes from a deep focus and expression for everything that I truly value and enjoy in the world.

6. Yes, ditto...

7. Yes...big time rational first indication!! One thing that I have always exhibited from day 1 is deep focus. While I may at times get into a minor ADD mode too, the truth of the matter is that from the cradle, I have always shown a deep and profound focus for the thing that captivates my attention and focus. I can addictively spend time on the one thing that I just love to do (or if it is work, that I need to do). It is as if an inner passion rules my world, and as long as I can find some external interest that captivates me, I can go in there hook, line, and sinker. Come to think of it, Socionics and typology is definitely one such interest. And yes, I am focused on understanding every nuance of it. I love it!

8. BIG TIME. Need I say anymore... I think that between you, aestrivex, and others, that point is blatantly clear.

9. Yes...I am married to a detail-oriented person, likely an ESI. She will focus a ton more on the details of daily life and its routine. I am not nearly as focused on the details as she is and I need a higher sense of meaning, theory, and spirituality than she could ever need. While I respect her focus on daily routines and details, I am just not as interested as she is. I need a more big-picture direction and focus than she requires. Our general interests differ quite a bit because of this.

10. Yes again. This is very related to the destiny topic, and I am a strong believer in having a deep purpose for being here. Sometimes I wonder if that could be related just as much to the Ne concept of living up to one's potential in life, rather than merely going through the drudgery of life without some larger sense of the bigger picture. This also relates to my deeper connection to TV/movie characters such as Lost's John Locke, Luke Skywalker, and Neo from the Matrix (to name just a few). Can a person live life at a top-notch level (in terms of potential) and make it a very unique experience? As a personal life coach, this question/topic is one that deeply interests me.

11 and 11A. Definitely as well. I just want to be recognized for the type of kind and responsible person that I deeply try to be. It isn't to competitively move up some sort of corporate (or status-based) ladder. It is about simply being heard and recognized. Often EIIs can be ignored in spite of their quiet, yet staunchly loyal and unwavering support that they provide for the people that are on their radar screen (i.e., family, friends, coworkers, boss, etc.) I think that some of it may have to do with a sense of humility about the nature of their support. Being ignored can bother me tremendously and can be a pet peeve for me. So I do want to be recognized for who I am and what I do. But I don't do it for competition...I do it because I feel overlooked otherwise.

12. Big time delta question. I believe that hard work, focus, and desire is crucial for moving forward. While I would love things to happen effortlessly, the truth of the matter is that often the finest things in life happen because of hard work and effort. But I also think that the hard work should be inspired from within. So I will often seek ways to psyche myself up for doing a task. Because I tend to do better when I am passionately inspired to focus. So to me that combination of internal passion/motivation with effort is key, and I try my best with this "recipe" to do as best as I can with whatever comes my way.

13. I think that in the final analysis, I have fewer deep interests. There are times that I might try to have more/broader interests, but the truth of the matter is that I still gravitate towards a select few domains, and focus towards deeply understanding/mastering those domains. I envy those who are a jack of all trades but the truth of the matter is that I question whether I have truly done that throughout the course of my life. The same applies with friends as well....fewer in quantity but hopefully reasonable in quality.

13A. Yes...this answer is highly similar to 9. I do not want to get hung up on extraneous details and would rather distill it to its essence. At least I try to do that.

14. I agree with that. I recognize and am fascinated with the qualities in each person that makes him/her unique. So I am deeply interested in what makes each person uniquely tick (Hence my love for Socionics and Enneagram types!). I do believe that everyone's potential is to a certain extent (and that might even say it mildly) distinct and unique. To notice the strengths and potential for each person is something that I enjoy very much.

15. I fully agree with you that I do value the Si-based world (even though I am an N type). I love it when people are able to feel at ease and comfortable wherever they happen to be, and I enjoy an environment where I am able to kick back and enjoy myself, no matter where I am. I completely agree with you that Si feels much better to me than Se does. The aroma of a nice cup of coffee and/or the feeling of a relaxing bath simply adds value to my day. I wonder if this is also the reason why I relate so well to Hurley from Lost. Not as much as Locke, but he comes reasonably close as well.

16. I agree with you....I don't like an overly abrupt rush of Se. It is simply too much for me to handle, and I find it quite aggressive at times. While I admit that at times certain situations force me to get moving and executing in a large-scale way, and at times I also admit that I don't like hyper-laziness to the point where I might urge my wife to get going, but the truth is that I am resistant to big time movement unless I feel inspired to do it. I definitely have a love/hate relationship to the 'Just Do It' motto, and while I know that very little in this world would happen if there was no movement regarding getting stuff done, I also know that it is a killer to get me to do anything until I am fully mentally prepared for taking action. I can stay on the fence and procrastinate for quite a while (just ask my wife) if I am not internally inspired or ready to get going. But once I do get moving, I am alright and my body adjusts to the increased activity and movement. Overall, I definitely agree with you. I must admit that I feel surrounded (by my wife and her immediate family) with heavy Se. While I am absolutely committed to fulfilling my obligations and to not letting anyone down, it can often be so tough for me (who values Si way more than Se) to live with those constant demands for movement. Pain in the a-- to say the least. Yet, as a J-type, I feel responsible to do my share and this is extremely important to me too. I can easily get pushed around this way.

17. BIG TIME!!! I think that throughout this reply, I feel that I have strongly reinforced this point. Complete and utter agreement!

18. I feel like I use Fe in a middle-of-the-road kind of way. Only on rare occasion am I much louder the norm of a given conversation. While at times, I may want to stir the pot (in a goofy kind of way), the truth of the matter is that I tend to communicate more at the level that the conversation requires. So I definitely have energy and am passionate, but I don't think that I operate at the level that many dominant Fe-types inherently do on as much of a regular way. Also, when I am comfortable, I can Fe a TON more, but when I am not in a comfortable or familiar crowd I certainly go in the other direction. So I feel that I use Fe in a somewhat moderate way. Sometimes I use the hyperbole, but often I simply don't. I can pivot both ways as the situation requires. Lets say that I'm in that 'hyperbolic' world 30-35% of the time while in the remainder of time, I simply am not that way.

19. Agreed. I definitely speak destiny and deeper meaning. Is that purely an Ni trait? How does destiny (Ni) differ from potential (Ne)? Also, unless a person has a spiritual bent, I wouldn't even talk about destiny with that person. It is only if the other person also talks destiny that I can go in that direction. But BOY do I appreciate and value this general concept overall.

20. Lively and energetic for sure....but point #18 (as you nicely brought it up) discusses how I can be like that merely up to a certain extent. So I simply don't know if this aspect is sufficient on its own to make me an EIE. I guess that this is where the decision making between EII and EIE come into play.

And yes, I feel that with this amazing post (which honestly reads me like a book), I feel like the pendulum has shifted back in the direction towards the type that I thought that I have been. It is kinda funny how I feel that we now have gone full circle back towards EII.

What I find really cool however is that assuming that I am an EII, I have an added dose of Fe sprinkled in. It is almost as if I have both the sensitivity/receptivity to value humanity on a personal level (delta), while at the same time, I can have a little passion infused whenever I need to do that.

While I am still very much open to your feedback/rebuttals, I completely buy the EII argument at this current point. It is what I instinctively thought as I have entered the Socionics community. Thanks for helping me out here and for taking the time to work with me on this journey!

[aestrivex]

Hi RSV,

To start off...let me just say, WOW!!

i figured out another thing that clued me into Fe values -- your use of expressive and animated language.

[mikesilb]

Hi RSV,

To start off...let me just say, WOW!!

i figured out another thing that clued me into Fe values -- your use of expressive and animated language.

Hi Aestrivex,

I have a question for you based on what you wrote. I completely see why you would feel based on my self-presentation that EIE (or some Fe valuing type) still sounds more right to you. I get that. On the flip side, what RSV wrote regarding the various facets of my personal style clearly seems correct in an obvious way. From my vantage point, I am curious to know if we can reconcile these two perspectives or are they pretty much irreconcilable.

In other words, is there anyway that your typing of me as an EIE can still fit the type of descriptions that RSV wrote? Which items (1-20 based on my response) can be reconciled with EIE and which ones have no shot of proving EIE? BTW, I completely value the fact that you feel that my type applies based on your intuitive impression of my self-presentation. Do you feel that this is a more or less reliable determinant of type than the way that RSV approached it?

Bottom line: Two people are stating aspects that have validity to them. Can we be able to synthesize them in any way? Curious as to your thoughts.

[aestrivex]

Hi Aestrivex,

I have a question for you based on what you wrote. I completely see why you would feel based on my self-presentation that EIE (or some Fe valuing type) still sounds more right to you. I get that. On the flip side, what RSV wrote regarding the various facets of my personal style clearly seems correct in an obvious way. From my vantage point, I am curious to know if we can reconcile these two perspectives or are they pretty much irreconcilable.

In other words, is there anyway that your typing of me as an EIE can still fit the type of descriptions that RSV wrote?

in sum, yes.

Which items (1-20 based on my response) can be reconciled with EIE

all of them. there is a single item -- actually one item which you chunked into two separate items -- which to me seem like a delta theme; those are 15 and 16 in your list. every single other item in that list is either something that i am inclined to see far more strongly in a beta context, or find very vague (and i disagree with the observational basis behind 16).

BTW, I completely value the fact that you feel that my type applies based on your intuitive impression of my self-presentation. Do you feel that this is a more or less reliable determinant of type than the way that RSV approached it?

i'm not sure what methodological approach you think RSV3 took. frankly, i think that all participants in this discussion are communicating only in a relatively subjective way, and certainly both RSV3's assessment and my assessment were based on a very subjective reading of your video. what i see as far more salient (and what, perhaps, i could communicate to you) are the differences in interpretation of quadra dynamics and our ways of seeing the IM elements -- in terms of methodological differences, i don't see what role they play in this discussion -- though, as an aside, i think that every measure in the main profiles of this site is severely flawed, with the exception of user-specified typings.

Bottom line: Two people are stating aspects that have validity to them. Can we be able to synthesize them in any way? Curious as to your thoughts.[/quote]